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4,967 hits 1.0 (2 votes) Share Favorite | Flag 9 years ago by Malletman

Is finding a yellow pencil evidence in favor of the statement "All ravens are black"?


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9 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Monday 5/7/12 - 12:30:39 PM EST (GMT-5)
What does a pencil have to do with a raven?
9 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Monday 5/7/12 - 12:35:36 PM EST (GMT-5)
cantaloupe
9 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Monday 5/7/12 - 12:55:14 PM EST (GMT-5)
if you're Popper, I guess
9 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Monday 5/7/12 - 7:20:06 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Monday 5/7/12 - 12:30:39 PM emif119 wrote:
What does a pencil have to do with a raven?

9 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Monday 5/7/12 - 8:07:28 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Monday 5/7/12 - 12:30:39 PM emif119 wrote:
What does a pencil have to do with a raven?

Ditto, this question makes no sense.
9 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Monday 5/7/12 - 9:07:25 PM EST (GMT-5)
I think what he means is, what are the chances of finding a yellow pencil, and are they the same as all ravens are black?
9 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Tuesday 5/8/12 - 9:55:32 AM EST (GMT-5)

Albino raven... more to think about.
9 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Tuesday 5/8/12 - 10:12:44 AM EST (GMT-5)
Raven Parodox
It's about inductive logic. Summary is that the statement:

1) 'All ravens are black'

is the same as saying:

2) 'All non-black things are not ravens'

because you're saying a raven has to be black in the first statement. so if it isn't black, it can't be a raven.
Inductive logic is about making claims about a general rule from a finite set of observations, e.g.

'This raven is black, therefore all ravens are black'

Following that logic, you should also say:

'This pencil is yellow, therefore all ravens are black'

because it's not black and not a raven, which supports statement 2, and therefore supports the logically equivalent statement (1).
9 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Thursday 5/10/12 - 12:42:48 PM EST (GMT-5)
The logic is much more simpler than that: they have nothing to do with each other. So no.
9 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Thursday 5/10/12 - 1:03:10 PM EST (GMT-5)
But that's the point, it's a paradox because we think it sounds wrong, but the logic entails that they *are* related.

Observing a black raven and observing a yellow pencil are both support for the claim that "all ravens are black".
9 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Thursday 5/10/12 - 1:26:38 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Monday 5/7/12 - 12:30:39 PM emif119 wrote:
What does a pencil have to do with a raven?
On Monday 5/7/12 - 8:07:28 PM BrandonGuy56 wrote:
Ditto, this question makes no sense.

Yeah, I'm lost ?
9 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Thursday 5/17/12 - 12:27:09 PM EST (GMT-5)
Finding this question is in favor of the statement "you're a moron"
9 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Sunday 5/20/12 - 1:57:09 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Tuesday 5/8/12 - 10:12:44 AM Floor Demon wrote:
[link] It's about inductive logic. Summary is that the statement: 1) 'All ravens are black' is the same as saying: 2) 'All non-black things are not ravens' because you're saying a raven has to be black in the first statement. so if it isn't black, it can't be a raven. Inductive logic is about making claims about a general rule from a finite set of observations, e.g. 'This raven is black, therefore all ravens are black' Following that logic, you should also say: 'This pencil is yellow, therefore all ravens are black' because it's not black and not a raven, which supports statement 2, and therefore supports the logically equivalent statement (1).

Have you been watching Sherlock?
9 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Sunday 5/20/12 - 4:27:25 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Friday 5/18/12 - 9:53:13 PM stylee wrote:
Good one, Mallet! Pity no one else followed.


FD did, at least. I wondered if at least some people would be bothered to look it up, but it seems not. It was posted soon after lazyteen's "evidence of absence" question, which is actually a closely related problem.
9 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Wednesday 5/23/12 - 7:45:28 AM EST (GMT-5)
I don't think so.
9 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Wednesday 5/23/12 - 10:49:05 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Tuesday 5/8/12 - 10:12:44 AM Floor Demon wrote:
[link] It's about inductive logic. Summary is that the statement: 1) 'All ravens are black'...................and therefore supports the logically equivalent statement (1).


I'm getting a headache.

My logic is learning that absolutes have a tendency to make a statement false. Such as "All ravens are black." Elainiwen's picture of a BEAUTIFUL albino raven just falsified that statement. And of course, I have also used a variety of colored pencils with different colored lead and regular lead pencils that come in various colors on the outside so the other statement is obviously false, too.

And yes, I realize that this is all Demon's logic post and we all know that neither statement is true. It almost sounds like some of the stuff we were doing my freshman math class.
9 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Wednesday 5/23/12 - 11:25:17 AM EST (GMT-5)
We operate on the principle all the time. It isn't foolproof, it's just the best we can do on limited evidence. And evidence is always limited.
9 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 5/24/12 - 4:54:08 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Tuesday 5/8/12 - 10:12:44 AM Floor Demon wrote:
[link] It's about inductive logic. Summary is that the statement: 1) 'All ravens are black' is the same as saying: 2) 'All non-black things are not ravens' because you're saying a raven has to be black in the first statement. so if it isn't black, it can't be a raven. Inductive logic is about making claims about a general rule from a finite set of observations, e.g. 'This raven is black, therefore all ravens are black' Following that logic, you should also say: 'This pencil is yellow, therefore all ravens are black' because it's not black and not a raven, which supports statement 2, and therefore supports the logically equivalent statement (1).


Isn't it simply called a sophism in English?
9 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 5/24/12 - 4:57:27 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 5/10/12 - 1:03:10 PM Floor Demon wrote:
But that's the point, it's a paradox because we think it sounds wrong, but the logic entails that they *are* related. Observing a black raven and observing a yellow pencil are both support for the claim that "all ravens are black".

if it were logic, I would agree. but it's not, its an assumption, and using a fact to try to prove an innaccurate assumption. lets say a person is smart, so if its not smart its not a person. the pencil, having no intellegence, is not smart, but does not prove that if it is not smart, it is not human. it proves that some things that are not smart are not human, but by no means includes all things that are not smart.
9 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Thursday 5/24/12 - 5:43:50 PM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 5/24/12 - 4:54:08 PM Abzurd wrote:
Isn't it simply called a sophism in English?

A sophism is when a specious argument is used for the purpose of deceit.

So in this case, no. It's not used for deceit, and in fact a good many logicians only see the 'paradox' as a conflict between logic and intuition.
9 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Friday 5/25/12 - 8:54:11 AM EST (GMT-5)
On Thursday 5/24/12 - 4:54:08 PM Abzurd wrote:
Isn't it simply called a sophism in English?
On Thursday 5/24/12 - 5:43:50 PM Malletman wrote:
A sophism is when a specious argument is used for the purpose of deceit. So in this case, no. It's not used for deceit, and in fact a good many logicians only see the 'paradox' as a conflict between logic and intuition.

Ok. In French, in this particular case, it would be called a sophism. A paradox would be, like the "actor's paradox" for example, an intense moment on stage were the crowd is moved, but the actor is thinking about his grocery list.
9 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Friday 5/25/12 - 4:27:02 PM EST (GMT-5)
Some philosophers have called inductive reasoning in general sophistic; but not specifically this argument. As with the two statements I noted:

'This raven is black, therefore all ravens are black'
'This pencil is yellow, therefore all ravens are black'

Intuitively, the first is at least somewhat reasonable but the second seems silly. The general gist of sophism is that it's attractive but wrong. The point of the raven 'paradox' (it's used fairly loosely in English too) is to highlight that the first statement is invalid (the problem of induction), and that you have to accept the second if you accept the first.
9 yrs ago, 3 mos ago - Friday 5/25/12 - 4:45:48 PM EST (GMT-5)
I'm mostly trying to understand the difference between terms in English and French, the "fake friends" we call them (words that are very similar but means different things)

I'm not arguing, just trying to understand the language.
6 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Sunday 5/3/15 - 5:42:13 PM EST (GMT-5)
i was supposed to read a book on logic to undo the damage i did reading a book claiming to prove imperfect reason.
6 yrs ago, 4 mos ago - Tuesday 5/5/15 - 1:52:41 AM EST (GMT-5)
Superstition is stupid.



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