The idea attributes the ills of society to society itself, and asserts than man in his natural state is inherently good.  As sumarized by Jean-Jacques Rousseau: 'Everything is good in leaving the hands of the creator of things; everything degenerates in the hands of man.' Question Who's Online | Find Members | Private Messages
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2,222 hits Rate me! Share Favorite | Flag 15 years ago by Malletman

Do you believe in the concept of the Noble Savage?
The idea attributes the ills of society to society itself, and asserts than man in his natural state is inherently good. As sumarized by Jean-Jacques Rousseau: `Everything is good in leaving the hands of the creator of things; everything degenerates in the hands of man.`


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15 yrs ago, 6 mos ago - Saturday 3/4/06 - 4:30:00 PM EST (GMT-5)
I believe that God created each person to be perfect. God is holy and never plans or designs anything to be flawed. Satan, since the fall of man, has tainted that goodness. Now people are born sinful. So, I do agree to it in some respects.
15 yrs ago, 6 mos ago - Saturday 3/4/06 - 4:36:04 PM EST (GMT-5)
On 3/4/2006 4:30:00 PM jvcc wrote:
God is holy and never plans or designs anything to be flawed.

Are you so sure about that?

I don't really agree with the "Noble Savage" concept. Ancient humans killed and raped each other, hurt the environment, and did all the other bad things that we do today. We're just better at it.

15 yrs ago, 6 mos ago - Sunday 3/5/06 - 4:49:10 PM EST (GMT-5)
Bull...
When a baby is born there is no conscience whatsoever. It is a ball of pure egoism until it has learned better manners...if that ever happens anyway.
15 yrs ago, 6 mos ago - Sunday 3/5/06 - 4:52:33 PM EST (GMT-5)
The question isn't about babies...
15 yrs ago, 6 mos ago - Sunday 3/5/06 - 5:15:45 PM EST (GMT-5)
Damn now all I can think about is a Savage Garden Song. Thanks
15 yrs ago, 6 mos ago - Sunday 3/5/06 - 10:28:00 PM EST (GMT-5)
wtf is that? nvr heard of it.
15 yrs ago, 6 mos ago - Tuesday 3/7/06 - 9:43:56 PM EST (GMT-5)
"man in his natural state is inherently good."

I don't believe people to be inherently good at all.

A person's natural instinct is to put their own well-being first, and to do whatever they can (whether it be immoral or not) to preserve themselves.

15 yrs ago, 6 mos ago - Wednesday 3/8/06 - 4:07:57 PM EST (GMT-5)
I don't really believe in that concept. Sure, humans now in their unnatural forms have done some bad things, but they've done good things as well. Modern humans have helped to make this world a better place by learning and taking advantage of knowledge and technology. As a result, we live to be 76 now instead of 18. Despite what we take from it and how we damage it, there's no doubt modern humans have advanced the world far more than natural humans.
15 yrs ago, 6 mos ago - Wednesday 3/8/06 - 6:57:58 PM EST (GMT-5)
If man is originally good, it isn't logical to say man only turns bad with the interference with man.

Either man is not inherently good, or bad things really come from another source.

15 yrs ago, 6 mos ago - Wednesday 3/8/06 - 8:46:34 PM EST (GMT-5)
I don't think we've gotten in touch with our natural state yet; man as he originated doesn't reflect this natural state; the natural state is a higher state of consciousness.

The end product of human existence will be a species evolved over thousands of years into the supremely enlightened race. Who, if we knew them now, we just might be referring to as extraterrestrials.

15 yrs ago, 6 mos ago - Thursday 3/9/06 - 5:48:12 AM EST (GMT-5)
Heh, I'm surprised I've gotten 40% yesses for this so far, when it's really not seriously believed by anyone who studies the idea anymore (and really looks into it).
15 yrs ago, 6 mos ago - Thursday 3/9/06 - 5:51:46 AM EST (GMT-5)
If you remove the 'noble' then I'd be more prepared to believe it
15 yrs ago, 6 mos ago - Thursday 3/9/06 - 7:14:26 PM EST (GMT-5)
I might add that 'society' is an early social construct based on coping with the observed behaviours of these ill-natured human beings; the meddling with trial and error, what laws work and what laws don't work, in an effort to keep order. At some point there won't be any need for any of this.
15 yrs ago, 6 mos ago - Sunday 3/12/06 - 5:12:53 AM EST (GMT-5)
On 3/9/2006 7:14:26 PM jf2k2rj wrote:
I might add that 'society' is an early social construct based on coping with the observed behaviours of these ill-natured human beings; the meddling with trial and error, what laws work and what laws don't work, in an effort to keep order. At some point there won't be any need for any of this.

Are you suggesting that humans will "evolve" (I use the term loosely, because you're automatically assuming for the sake of betterment, especially in a moral and philosophical sense) into a higher state? That's a horrible lack of understanding of evolution.

Honestly, the most "natural" state of humans is the pleistocene... everything since then has been a construction of the capability of language and compounding ideas possible by the brain since then (as there hasn't been enough time since for there to be any major selection of mental capabilities)...

15 yrs ago, 6 mos ago - Sunday 3/12/06 - 5:25:18 AM EST (GMT-5)
This "natural" state is flawed in its intuitions.

Consider the basic intuitive sense of physics. Put simply, it's flawed. The most brilliant scientists will admit that they can work with the ideas well enough, but they still can't escape the basic intuitive questions as a result. The imtuitive sense is similar to the medieval concept of "impetus" rather than even Newtonian physics (and god forbid the last hundred years in physics, which are completely counter-intuitive).

There's a lot of other intuitive senses that have since reached their flaw if you'd like me to go into them...

15 yrs ago, 6 mos ago - Sunday 3/12/06 - 7:52:09 AM EST (GMT-5)
Nope, it's a romantic fantasy with no basis in reality...sorry if I burst any bubbles.
15 yrs ago, 6 mos ago - Thursday 3/16/06 - 12:59:50 PM EST (GMT-5)
On 3/12/2006 5:12:53 AM Malletman wrote:
Are you suggesting that humans will "evolve" (I use the term loosely, because you're automatically assuming for the sake of betterment, especially in a moral and philosophical sense) into a higher state? That's a horrible lack of understanding of evolution. Honestly, the most "natural" state of humans is the pleistocene... everything since then has been a construction of the capability of language and compounding ideas possible by the brain since then (as there hasn't been enough time since for there to be any major selection of mental capabilities)...

Ok, not evolve then. 'Change into' or 'become' over time might be better wording. Of the spiritual and mental kind.

15 yrs ago, 6 mos ago - Saturday 3/18/06 - 10:31:14 PM EST (GMT-5)
i donno, maybe.
15 yrs ago, 5 mos ago - Monday 4/3/06 - 6:56:05 PM EST (GMT-5)
I read in a book that the more advanced a human society, the more common murder and aggression are. I forget the exact name of the book. I think it's "The Nature of Human Aggression" or something like that.
15 yrs ago, 5 mos ago - Monday 4/3/06 - 7:03:22 PM EST (GMT-5)
No, as I do not believe humans are inherently good.
15 yrs ago, 5 mos ago - Monday 4/3/06 - 7:05:16 PM EST (GMT-5)
The Noble Savage idea was this rationalization invented by 19th century anthropologists to justify classifying various tribal peoples as sub- (or at least pre-)European.

So I guess I would have to say no.

15 yrs ago, 5 mos ago - Monday 4/3/06 - 7:13:30 PM EST (GMT-5)
On 3/7/2006 9:43:57 PM melLowstar wrote:
"man in his natural state is inherently good." I don't believe people to be inherently good at all. A person's natural instinct is to put their own well-being first, and to do whatever they can (whether it be immoral or not) to preserve themselves.

I'm not sure about that, selfish gene wise people like most animals are more likely to be driven to protect their offspring than themselves. The survival of your genes is more fundamentally important than your own survival.

As to the question, a big fat no. Whilst I wouldn't go as far as the tabula rasa arguement, humans aren't born with a whole hell of alot. We're constructed, not tainted.

15 yrs ago, 5 mos ago - Tuesday 4/4/06 - 11:57:12 AM EST (GMT-5)
On 4/3/2006 7:05:16 PM rufio wrote:
The Noble Savage idea was this rationalization invented by 19th century anthropologists to justify classifying various tribal peoples as sub- (or at least pre-)European.

Umm, that's the opposite of it. The idea was criticizing current society by saying that those untainted by society were better.

15 yrs ago, 5 mos ago - Wednesday 4/5/06 - 2:02:58 PM EST (GMT-5)
No, they had a theory that culture evolved from a more primitive form to a more advanced form, and that Europeans represented the most advanced form possible, and every other culture was primitive. They also maintained that European culture had at one time been primitive, but they never suggested that they should go back to that.

It's true that they were less predjudiced than most people of their time, but that doesn't make them necessarily right.

15 yrs ago, 5 mos ago - Wednesday 4/5/06 - 2:13:45 PM EST (GMT-5)
On 4/3/2006 6:56:05 PM cryndigo wrote:
I read in a book that the more advanced a human society, the more common murder and aggression are. I forget the exact name of the book. I think it's "The Nature of Human Aggression" or something like that.

I'd be willing to bet that one confounding variable that couldn't be excluded in this study is the effective size of the society. I think (though I have no evidence) that as societies increase in size, acts of violence increase. Nothing to do with being primative or advanced (except that, obviously, advanced societies have access to larger weapons and more massive acts of violence).


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